|
Post by jetlag on Oct 30, 2018 9:31:21 GMT -5
tl;dr probably the best US heavyweight match from the mid to late 90s. Really smart and fun wrestling, genuinely great Goldberg performance
Wouldn't be shocked if his was the best heavyweight match from a US main promotion in the late 90s. Just a perfectly worked clash of the titans style match which rightfully had the fans flipping out. Opening wrestling exchanges were really entertaining as it was basically DDP trying anything and everything to chop Goldberg down and Goldberg just destroying him. Goldberg tackling him through the ropes and backflipping out of a leg trip is why he's special. He also made an indy-ish twisting suplex move look brutal. Last few minutes were just great as Goldberg sold his vulnerability (including knocking himself out) just right while still retaining his dangerous aura and finishing DDP off quickly.
|
|
|
Post by superstarsleeze on Nov 2, 2018 12:36:55 GMT -5
I was on the fence about nominating this it wont make my list, but i do love it! so i will second it. i prefer Sting/DDP as my DDP classic (he was a top 3 US worker from 97-99 and does not get enough credit). More DDP should be nominated!
WCW World Heavyweight Champion Goldberg vs Diamond Dallas Page - WCW Halloween Havoc 1998
I saw this originally when WCW was compelled to repeat the entire main event on Nitro because they went over on the PPV, which is part of the reason the match is so famous. I honestly had forgotten everything about the match so besides knowing who won this was totally fresh. The other reason this match is famous because it is really good in time period where WCW main event were usually dogshit. Guess what this match is not just really good, it is excellent. I actually think this match is underrated given the ratings I have seen around the net. It is a testament to both Goldberg's aura and DDP's ring generalship at this time. With a doubt, DDP is the WCW MVP of 1998 and his entire 1998 is proof at his amazing grasp on pro wrestling psychology.
The World Heavyweight Champion versus the People's Champion, the Unstoppable Force versus the Blue Collar Hero, the Rookie Phenomenon versus the Hard Working Late Bloomer, just the characters naturally make for a great story going into the match. DDP is wrestling manifestation of John McClane and he is taking on the fucking Terminator in Goldberg. Who does not want to see that? This is the type of match that shows why pro wrestling is the greatest form of entertainment to ever exist in human history.
Page is JAAAAACCCCKKKKKED TO THE MOON for this one and he comes at Goldberg repeatedly who shrugs him off with powerful shoves. DDP will not be detered and they spill out in a heated moment. Goldberg is treated like a super athlete here: unstoppable power, impervious to pain and cat-like quickness. When DDP tries a single leg pick up, Goldberg does a backflip and DDP does it again to get a one count. That is the story of DDP the dude just does not know when to quit. He is going to try and try and try. I love it! Goldberg's stunned selling, but always moving to get up and moving forward is so perfect for his character. I love the urgency of every DDP movement knowing he is in there with a monster. He has his one big weapon, the Diamond Cutter, he tries it early and gets send flying to the outside. DDP tries to contain Goldberg with a front facelock, but Goldberg explodes out of it. Goldberg with a huge thrust kick sends DDP into the corner. Goldberg goes for the spear and eats the ringpost. OH SHIT! It only makes sense the person who can do the most damage to Goldberg is Goldberg. DDP signals for the Diamond Cutter and BOOM! SPEAR! THE PLACE COMES UNGLUED! I LOST MY SHIT! Goldberg's shoulder is fucked. Can he get him up for the Jackhammer? DIAMOND CUTTER! PIN HIM, DALLAS! PIN THAT MAN! GET UP! GET UP! PIN HIM! 1-2-NOOOOOO!!!!!! DDP tries to stay on him, but Goldberg reverses a suplex attempt into a Jackhammer. Holy shit, that was electric.
I have become the biggest retroactive DDP fan. His Die Hard, blue collar attitude is just so badass. You can't help but cheer for the dude. Honestly, lost myself in that Diamond Cutter. I really thought to myself can DDP pull this out before I came back to reality. Pitch perfect layout that accentuated both men's characters. Pro wrestling matches should be driven by wins and losses, but how it gets done should be unique to the participants involved. These two men are the only people who could have this match because it uniquely fit them. That is the hallmark of excellent pro wrestling psychology. ****1/4
|
|
|
Post by thepumalives on Dec 4, 2018 14:29:41 GMT -5
I’ll third this nomination. I had never actually seen this match before although I do remember it being featured in a magazine, probably PWI. This may be the best Goldberg match I’ve ever seen, and DDP really played to his strengths in the layout of this match; in particular showing how powerful he really was and having Goldberg drive him through the ropes and to the floor on a simple lockup. I understand striking whilethe iron is hot, but WCW really should have had these two work a full program and Goldberg probably could have learned a lot about working. DDP was the star of this show though, working the crowd and getting them to bite on that Diamond Cutter.
|
|
|
Post by tetsujin on Mar 17, 2021 13:11:50 GMT -5
This is probably the best Goldberg match ever until WM 33, and only the Rock Backlash match is close to me. It's not even that great of a match, but it works perfectly for what it is: a fun, dynamic sprint in which DDP manages to get the unstoppable force to the limit by outsmarting him. It's a very good intelligence vs strenght type of match, I love that it's only like 10 minutes long or whatever, and Goldberg even tries some new stuff (he's not very good at those submission attempts and they added nothing to the match, but for example that backflip was amazing). Yeah pretty fun, an instant classic.
|
|
|
Post by witlon on Mar 17, 2021 17:45:51 GMT -5
It might've been my first time ever seeing this, maybe? If not, I had limited recollection.
It's a fun sprint, and a satisfying, clean finish. The announcers putting over the reason for Goldberg trying out the submissions helped, and the crowd going nuts for the ringpost spot and the Diamond Cutter sold it as a big moment. DDP's pinball bumping in the early portion was good, as well. It's a shame this followed what it did on the show, because with a hot crowd throughout, (I think) it's a more remembered classic match.
|
|
|
Post by bossrock on Mar 18, 2021 15:54:04 GMT -5
This may actually be my favorite Goldberg match, even moreso than the Brock Mania 33 match (it's at least close). The big, no-nonsense powerhouse Goldberg imposes his will and tosses Page around while the latter refuses to back down. Page finds some great openings to briefly turn the tide in his favor and does a good job capitalizing on the injured shoulder. The Diamond Cutter counter of the Jackhammer is brilliant and probably my favorite Diamond Cutter ever.
Not really a "greatest match of all-time contender" but this still rules. Goldberg at his finest and DDP puts on a great babyface performance. Not to mention an awesome "big match" feel. ****-****1/4
|
|
|
Post by mvz on Mar 18, 2021 18:39:21 GMT -5
The fact that this match it 23 years old makes me feel ancient. Wrestling at this time feels so different. One reason is that both these guys have off serious star power. I can’t believe Goldberg is losing the title in 2 months, they are totally with him! The crowd loves them some DDP too. Another distinction, their big moves felt big. The spear, diamond cutter, and jackhammer spots are memorable. Through there are memorable touches too like that collar and elbow tie up that goes to the outside. Fun watch.
|
|
|
Post by Cap on Mar 26, 2021 6:14:42 GMT -5
I just watched this again for the first time in a while. I'm a pretty positive guy, probably to a fault sometimes. I think I just don't like Goldberg. I've been vocal about it before, but I think my distaste for him is a bit more active than I realized. Don't get me wrong, I really like this match, but I like it almost despite him... and if there is any match where I think Goldberg is adding a great deal, it might be this. He is at the tail end of my genuine interest in him (I loved the streak and I loved him winning the strap) and this is the best selling performance, at least insofar as it substantially contributes to the match, I can think of from him. Even still, I found myself seeing that last point as the exception that proves the rule (at least in my head) and really admiring DDP for somehow getting what he did out of this match. This is great because DDP is able to use all the Goldberg tropes in fresh ways. His counters are really well crafted here. Ultimately, the match is a great deal better for it.
I am fairly convinced this was the time to take the strap off Goldberg and to do it clean. in 10 minutes, DDP earned it. The fans wanted to see Goldberg do Goldberg moves, but they popped crazy for that diamond cutter. I really think having Goldberg lose clean would have added something to his character, something they never bothered to do really. How he responded to losing to the people's champion in DDP could set him on a number of paths and give him a personality hook. After the streak goldberg was just always.... goldberg to me. He was superman, the boring "i'm good at everything" version. That is why I was already losing interest at the end of his title run and after I was more or less done. Once the surge of adrenaline was gone, even his in ring work was just sort of repetitive and and without personality.
Don't get me wrong. I can still get a bit fired up for that music to hit and for him to come out and do some cool stuff... but that is sort of what it feels like to me, "stuff". That is why I bring this up. I really wish WCW would have been able to give me a reason to care about goldberg other than "look at him!" I wanted a hook... a motivation... a personality.... something. I wanted to love him or hate him for the right reasons. He flashed the possibility of that here and DDP set the table. That in and of itself is worth praise really. This is a great match, tons of fun and totally worth a watch or even consideration if this is more your thing.
|
|
|
Post by elliott on Mar 26, 2021 12:58:00 GMT -5
I just watched this again for the first time in a while. I'm a pretty positive guy, probably to a fault sometimes. I think I just don't like Goldberg. I've been vocal about it before, but I think my distaste for him is a bit more active than I realized. Don't get me wrong, I really like this match, but I like it almost despite him... and if there is any match where I think Goldberg is adding a great deal, it might be this. He is at the tail end of my genuine interest in him (I loved the streak and I loved him winning the strap) and this is the best selling performance, at least insofar as it substantially contributes to the match, I can think of from him. Even still, I found myself seeing that last point as the exception that proves the rule (at least in my head) and really admiring DDP for somehow getting what he did out of this match. This is great because DDP is able to use all the Goldberg tropes in fresh ways. His counters are really well crafted here. Ultimately, the match is a great deal better for it. I am fairly convinced this was the time to take the strap off Goldberg and to do it clean. in 10 minutes, DDP earned it. The fans wanted to see Goldberg do Goldberg moves, but they popped crazy for that diamond cutter. I really think having Goldberg lose clean would have added something to his character, something they never bothered to do really. How he responded to losing to the people's champion in DDP could set him on a number of paths and give him a personality hook. After the streak goldberg was just always.... goldberg to me. He was superman, the boring "i'm good at everything" version. That is why I was already losing interest at the end of his title run and after I was more or less done. Once the surge of adrenaline was gone, even his in ring work was just sort of repetitive and and without personality. Don't get me wrong. I can still get a bit fired up for that music to hit and for him to come out and do some cool stuff... but that is sort of what it feels like to me, "stuff". That is why I bring this up. I really wish WCW would have been able to give me a reason to care about goldberg other than "look at him!" I wanted a hook... a motivation... a personality.... something. I wanted to love him or hate him for the right reasons. He flashed the possibility of that here and DDP set the table. That in and of itself is worth praise really. This is a great match, tons of fun and totally worth a watch or even consideration if this is more your thing. One of my best friends in high school had a birthday sleepover for Starrcade 1998 and the night was ruined when Nash beat Goldberg. He still talks about that. I'm sure theres an alternate reality where taking the title off of GOldberg would have been a good idea. That isn't this reality.
|
|
|
Post by Cap on Mar 26, 2021 16:50:09 GMT -5
When is though? They booked themselves in a corner. That isn't novel, of course. At least DDP earned the live crowd's love. It was like a worse, no-win version of Joe's run. The crowd loved Goldberg, but they were dying to be there when he lost... at least on this night. That crowd would have lost their god damned minds and DDP would have been actually made (in that way that people talk about being made from one win now days, but that isn't really how it works). The jackhammer feels like a shitty director's cut scene added to the end of the actual move here.
I'm not saying he had to be the guy to beat Goldberg, but off the top of my head and this fresh in my mind, I can' think of of better option.
Regardless, Goldberg was already losing his luster to me by this point. Hats off to DDP for this performance. I don't get the Goldberg love after this match (at latest)
|
|
|
Post by elliott on Mar 26, 2021 17:04:18 GMT -5
Its really simple. Ridiculously simple. You don't beat GOldberg.
This match was 3 months after GOldberg first won the title. He was still one of the two hottest stars in wrestling, the other being peak Steve Austin. He was the only reason WCW was still competing with WWF in late 1998. After Starrcade and the fingerpoke of doom Goldberg was deemphasized and it completely fell apart.
If WCW wasn't a disaster of a company, GOldberg maybe loses for the first time in like 2001? Whenever the fans get sick of him. Which certainly wasn't October (or December) of 1998.
Seriously. He was neck and neck with Austin in 1998. Literally nobody wanted Golberg to lose to anybody. If Goldberg was going to lose we wanted it to be to one guy: Stone Cold. Thats it. This is like wondering why they didn't take the belt off of Hulk Hogan in Spring of 1985.
|
|
|
Post by Cap on Mar 26, 2021 17:08:21 GMT -5
Sure... let him keep running, but eventually you have to do something and they booked themselves in a corner where the options for that something where going to be few and far between. It is easy to say "build someone to beat him". I think the fans would have turned on him well before 2001. He could have extended longer and maybe the timing would have been right, but with the data we have... give me a DDP upset over either Nash beating him or "let it run its course" because I don't believe in WCW booking at this point or Goldberg.
|
|
|
Post by elliott on Mar 26, 2021 17:18:31 GMT -5
If fans started to turn on him, then you have someone beat him. The point is he and his streak was one of the two hottest gimmicks during the hottest period in the history of wrestling and there was ZERO sign in October 1998 that Goldbergs momentum was slowing. At some point of course you have to beat him. But you can only do it once. Why pull the plug on the biggest draw in the company for no reason?
Beating goldberg when they did, or doing it even earlier as you propose is benching Michael Jordan before the 4th quarter. You do that and you lose.
|
|
|
Post by Cap on Mar 27, 2021 7:47:49 GMT -5
Hindsight is why I think this. I don't believe they were going to find a better time to make the most of his character because - again - I don't believe in either Goldberg or WCW. Your idea is safer, for sure, but I picture it running out of steam and meaning so much less down the road. Fan's weren't going to turn on Goldberg for losing one match, not if they told the right story after.
That metaphor is wrong haha. You aren't taking Goldberg out of the game. You are asking him to pass the ball once and know he will get it back very soon in a better position (you have all quarter to move the ball a little).
This is all coming from my personal boredom with Goldberg. The streak was great but once he became the "unbeatable champ" I started to get disinterested at the time and in hindsight I couldn't conceivably care less about it. I get that Goldberg has and had his fans though. I still just think doing something to add a layer to him a performer around this time would have done wonders.
|
|
|
Post by nintendologic on Mar 27, 2021 9:37:59 GMT -5
There was a vocal anti-Goldberg contingent at Starrcade, although it was clearly a minority. I'm not going to defend Nash ending the streak or the Fingerpoke of Doom as good booking decisions, but their role in WCW's demise is overstated. In fact, the aftermath of the latter led to Superbrawl doing either the third or fourth-highest buyrate in the history of the company. The wheels didn't really start to come off until the Hogan/Flair double turn at Uncensored.
It's been a good bit since I've seen this match, but I'll try to check it out this weekend. I will say that I've always been partial to the Steiner match at Fall Brawl as Goldberg's best.
|
|