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Post by Kadaveri on Sept 28, 2020 21:27:03 GMT -5
Alright this might be a bit more interesting, do you think he's worse than The Ultimate Warrior?
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Post by elliott on Sept 28, 2020 21:33:35 GMT -5
I would rather watch Warrior 100 times out of 100, but theres a nostalgia factor there.
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Post by KB8 on Sept 29, 2020 6:02:06 GMT -5
I hate that rebound lariat spot as well, but I give Nigel credit for the 6th Anniversary Show match v Danielson for getting legit, rabid heel heat from an ROH crowd, to the point where they were even doing "USA" chants like it was a 1984 Iron Sheik match and not 2008 smark central. I think that match is also comfortably better than the Unified match and the best match ROH has ever had.
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Post by Cap on Sept 29, 2020 6:17:11 GMT -5
I mentioned it elsewhere, but I think the Dragon/Nigel matches in Japan and from Rising Above are also pretty legit great matches.
I also haven't watched Nigel's matches against Mori in forever, but I remember liking them at the time. That might also be because I loved Mori.
The thing that frustrated me most about that lariat spot is that he had a pretty good lariat. He could have just done a regular lariat and it would have been fine.
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Post by tetsujin on Sept 29, 2020 6:24:44 GMT -5
I hate that rebound lariat spot as well, but I give Nigel credit for the 6th Anniversary Show match v Danielson for getting legit, rabid heel heat from an ROH crowd, to the point where they were even doing "USA" chants like it was a 1984 Iron Sheik match and not 2008 smark central. I think that match is also comfortably better than the Unified match and the best match ROH has ever had. 100000% agree. That match is legendary, top tier contender in my eyes, and Nigel plays a big rol in it. The best of their series.
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Post by KB8 on Sept 29, 2020 6:24:58 GMT -5
That's where I was at with the lariat as well. I know it's wrestling and thinking too much about physics and biomechanics while watching it is ridiculous, but I spend my days working with athletes on how to be quicker and more explosive and it's hard to disassociate that when I'm watching stuff and it's like, you know, just hit the ropes and do a normal lariat there, mate. The falling through the middle rope bit stunts momentum and your ability to generate force more than it amplifies it and yeah that's enough wrestling for today I think.
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Post by Cap on Sept 29, 2020 9:15:15 GMT -5
Updated to 11
Tomorrow the top 10 drops!
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Post by Cap on Sept 29, 2020 9:23:22 GMT -5
Few quick things...
First, I am equal parts disspointed to see Bock/Hennig fall a few spots as I am excited to see Queendom climb a few. Its a fair trade off to me, I suppose. They both belong up in this rarefied air though.
19. Katsuyori Shibata vs Kazuchika Okada (IWGP Title - NJPW - 4/9/2017) Total Points: 640 Ballots: 8 High Vote (6): JoeG 2019 Finish: 57
I am happy to see this make a big jump. 19 feels like a huge finish for a match just over 3 years old, but it doesn't feel unwarranted to me. Just being on half the ballots and getting some pretty hefty numbers is impressive.
16. Stan Hansen vs Andre the Giant (NJPW – 9/23/1981)Total Points: 704 Ballots: 9 High Vote (3): Elliott 2019 Finish: 22
Super happy to see this match creeping up the list a bit. It feels like it should be a slam dunk top 15 match, but top 20 is nothing to bulk at.
11. Mankind vs Shawn Michaels (WWF World Title - WWF - 9/22/1996)Total Points: 791 Ballots: 12 High Vote (2): Microstatistics 2019 Finish: 23
This is the monster finish of the year for me. I thought 23 was a great showing. 11 is phenomenal and making its way onto 12 ballots?! Really impressed. I watched it again recently and I love it up to the finish, which keeps it outside my top 100, but I totally get how others either don't mind that or look past it based on the work done through 90% of this. I think Foley has matches (maybe just one) that I like better on the whole, but this is his best single performance I think. Hats off to this one.
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Post by kas on Sept 29, 2020 9:51:47 GMT -5
Seeing Shibata/Okada, Mankind/Michaels, and Rey/Eddie surge into the top 20 is fucking awesome, but the big shocker here is Flair/Steamboat falling out of the top 10. I'm assuming that Kobashi/Hansen took its place. Mankind/Michaels finished around the middle of my ballot, but if it had a proper ending it would no doubt be in my top 10.
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Post by Cap on Sept 29, 2020 10:15:31 GMT -5
Yeah... if Mankind v HBK had a proper ending it would easily be on my list, probably top third.
Flair/Steamboat dropped a few spots for me at the last minute, but it would have only made a one spot difference in its overall finish. I think its a commonly accepted great match that suffers a bit from being so commonly accepted as great. Its greatness is almost just... there. I know for me I have really discovered a lot of new wrestling over the last two years and done some deeper dives into things. Some great stuff that feels fresher to me is maybe getting a slight inadvertent bump. I can't help but wonder if something similar happens with others. Even still, it wound up #12 on my list this year and 6 last year. Falling 6 spots is not nothing, but when you are talking about the top 15 or so on my list the demarcations are razor thin.
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Post by tetsujin on Sept 29, 2020 11:03:04 GMT -5
25-11 was amazing. I loved seeing Bock/Hennig with a top 3 vote, it's one of my all time #1 contenders. Clash VI out of the top 10 is a big shock, I guess Misawa/Kobashi '98 made it instead?
Shibata/Okada, as my current #1, being this high is my favourite thing of this year's list thus far. A total masterpiece.
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Post by Cap on Sept 29, 2020 11:37:31 GMT -5
Misawa/Kobashi 98 dropped to 52.
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Post by cactus on Sept 29, 2020 11:53:51 GMT -5
There's so much stuff I wished I had time to watch. I had no idea Nagayo and Matsumoto had a rematch that's considered better than their '85 match. I'll have to make time for more of the ROH gems from their first decade as a company. Danielson and McGuinness from Unified lived up to the hype and I'm curious to see how I'll rate their other matches.
Happy to see Okada/Shibata rate so highly. It's the only Okada match that can keep it's magic on multiple viewings, something that I can't say the same for with other NJPW epics.
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Post by Cap on Sept 29, 2020 12:45:57 GMT -5
I think that is a good way to put it with NJPW's modern epics. That is how I have seen them up until recently. I have come around on a few matches as really standing out. I have Nakamura/Ibushi (dome show), Okada/Omega 4, and Okada/Shibata all rated in my top 100 and I feel real confident in all three. I think Ibushi/Tanahashi from the G1 two years ago and from power struggle 17 and Tana/Suzuki have really stood out as worth further consideration that they will get before the next ballot. I also want to revisit the famed Tana/Okada matches. I found myself really high on their 2018 title match at Wrestling Dontaku. It wasn't really a contender for me, but between that and coming around a little more on some of these matches (especially Tana matches) it warrants a close look.
I'm interested to see how you feel about some of the other hyped ROH stuff. Like I said, for my money, Nigel and Dragon have 4 legit great matches. Only one makes my list, but at least two of the other three three are not completely out of consideration. There are tons of matches that hold up really well from 2000s ROH. If you haven't watched it I think Dragon v Gibson is criminally underrated. It isn't as flashy as a lot of indie wrestling from the time, but it is the spirit of like old 70s and 80s title matches. I personally want to re-watch some of the hyped stuff from like the next generation of ROH, specifically some of the Steen/Generico stuff. I have a lot of that rated really high, but haven't watched it in some time. I'd love to see how it ages.
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Post by Kadaveri on Sept 29, 2020 13:00:19 GMT -5
To me, Okada vs. Shibata was the only 30+ minute match of Okada's big title reign which actually felt like it suited that length, so it's my favourite mainly for that reason. So many of his other matches (especially the Omega defences) have long sections which don't go anywhere and feel like they're just there to pad out the length because for some reason it's been decided an Okada title defence cannot go less than 30.
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