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Post by nintendologic on Jul 28, 2023 18:00:58 GMT -5
It's also entirely possible the matches in question were nominated at some point but are buried somewhere in the nomination folder. This board's search function isn't the greatest.
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Post by KB8 on Jul 28, 2023 18:05:41 GMT -5
11. Katsuyori Shibata vs Kazuchika Okada (NJPW - 4/9/2017) Total Points: 1280 # of Ballots: 15 High Vote: dkuchler31096 - 1 2021 Finish: 18 (+7)
Every time we do this poll I say I'm going to watch this before the next one, and I never end up doing it. I think only getting about 10 minutes into it before shutting it off when I first attempted it has soured me on it in its entirety, which probably isn't fair. So here we are again, another GME 100 come and gone, and once more I'm saying I should watch this before the next poll.
10. Atlantis vs Villano III (Mask vs Mask - CMLL - 3/17/2000) Total Points: 1307 # of Ballots: 17 High Vote: Club - 1 2021 Finish: 26 (+16)
I'm lower on this than the other big lucha fans here, but I certainly won't complain about it finishing where it did. Insanely dramatic match.
9. Stan Hansen vs Kenta Kobashi (AJPW - 7/29/1993) Total Points: 1318 # of Ballots: 19 High Vote: silverwidow & Puropotsy - 5 2021 Finish: 6 (-3)
This fell sort of flat for me on last watch. I mean, I say "sort of" because it's flat relative to where I might've had it in the past and when judging it against the other absolute top tier picks. It's still a great match. Just one I'd think about for a 100-200 rather than a 1-100 at this point.
8. Bret Hart vs Owen Hart (WWF - 3/20/1994) Total Points: 1346 # of Ballots: 19 High Vote: Mattsdmf - 4 2021 Finish: 22 (+14)
Really good, but never been a favourite. It's not even my #1 Bret Hart match of 1994 and if I couldn't find a spot for Bret v Kwang then I can't find a spot for this, I'm afraid.
7. Kenta Kobashi & Tsuyoshi Kikuchi vs Dan Kroffat & Doug Furnas (AJPW - 5/25/1992) Total Points: 1349 # of Ballots: 18 High Vote: conker - 3 2021 Finish: 7 (No Change)
Once again - very good.
6. Sangre Chicana vs MS-1 (Hair vs Hair - EMLL - 9/23/1983) Total Points: 1393 # of Ballots: 19 High Vote: Cap - 2 2021 Finish: 21 (+15)
It almost feels cliche now to call this the definitive lucha apuestas match, but it really might be just that. Chicana is the master of throwing that first big home run punch during a comeback and this one looked like it about removed MS-1's soul from his body. Any time you've got wrestlers falling around the ring slipping on blood you know you're watching something remarkable. My #6 and another match I would have as #1 before seeing it drop out the top 10.
5. Stan Hansen vs Andre the Giant (NJPW - 9/23/1981) Total Points: 1472 # of Ballots: 24 High Vote: mvz & el_wreino - 5 2021 Finish: 8 (+3)
This finishing here despite not having a single #1 vote speaks to how UNIVERSAL it is. We've all seen it described as a real life Megazord battle or King Kong v Godzilla or a Jack Kirby splash page. It's that and more and one of the most easily re-watchable matches ever. If I had to put together a desert island playlist with 10 matches on it, this would be there. On this particular list it was merely my #15.
4. Kenta Kobashi vs Mitsuharu Misawa (AJPW - 1/20/1997) Total Points: 1811 # of Ballots: 21 High Vote: Puropotsy - 1 2021 Finish: 3 (-1)
The pinnacle of 90s All Japan to me. Even having lost interest in the style at large, this still hit me as a total masterpiece on last watch. Completely engrossing from start to finish and it's not often you'll catch me watching a 40-plus-minute match without checking how long's left even once. My #7.
3. Akira Hokuto vs Shinobu Kandori (AJW - 4/2/1993) Total Points: 2072 # of Ballots: 23 High Vote: madwizzzard, mrjmml, silverwidow, mvz, Gramsci, Grimmas & Cap - 1 2021 Finish: 4 (+1)
I'm a low voter on this. Or a non-voter, as it were. I said this when their rematch dropped elsewhere in the top 100, but this is probably the best match I've ever seen that I have no real strong feelings about one way or the other. It's probably always the match I have the hardest time with for something like this because I'm trying to balance objectivity and subjectivity and the age-old best v favourites conflict and in the end I felt fine not voting for it. I'm sure I'll watch it again at some point so we'll see where I land on it then.
2. Bret Hart vs Steve Austin (Submission Match - WWF - 3/23/1997) Total Points: 2119 # of Ballots: 24 High Vote: Mattsdmf - 1 2021 Finish: 2 (No Change)
Of course this is great, but similar to Hansen/Kobashi or Atlantis/V3 it's something I'd most likely be putting on a 100-200 list rather than this one. There's been a lot of good wrestling.
1. Holy Demon Army vs Kenta Kobashi and Mitsuharu Misawa (AJPW - 6/9/1995) Total Points: 2152 # of Ballots: 24 High Vote: Microstatistics, Cactus, andylfc, Lemming & NintendoLogic - 1 2021 Finish: 1 (No Change)
This is the next match up on my shallow dive back into 90s All Japan, so I'll almost certainly have gotten to it again by the next vote. At the risk of sounding like a true hipster, this wasn't even my favourite All Japan match of 1995 when I first went through this stuff 15+ years ago. I haven't re-watched it since then and I don't remember anything about it now, but I did just re-watch Misawa/Taue from the Champions Carnival and...this has some work to do if it's going to top that.
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Post by Cap on Jul 28, 2023 18:06:12 GMT -5
5. Stan Hansen vs Andre the Giant (NJPW - 9/23/1981) Total Points: 1472 # of Ballots: 24 High Vote: mvz & el_wreino - 5 2021 Finish: 8 (+3)
Truly special match. What a moment. Two of the greatest hosses in the absolute zone.
4. Kenta Kobashi vs Mitsuharu Misawa (AJPW - 1/20/1997) Total Points: 1811 # of Ballots: 21 High Vote: Puropotsy - 1 2021 Finish: 3 (-1)
This is such a perfect bit of business. It is the height of the genre in my mind. Even if I prefer another AJPW match by a touch, this fits the mold much better and might have broken it in my mind.
3. Akira Hokuto vs Shinobu Kandori (AJW - 4/2/1993) Total Points: 2072 # of Ballots: 23 High Vote: madwizzzard, mrjmml, silverwidow, mvz, Gramsci, Grimmas & Cap - 1 2021 Finish: 4 (+1)
Should be #1. Getting the most #1s is impressive. This must be a match that folks tend to have near the top or sort of at the bottom of their list. The two matches that beat it had fewer number 1s and were only on one more ballot. It hast to have been in the bottom quarter on a few ballots. Regardless… #3 is nothing to shake a stick at.
2. Bret Hart vs Steve Austin (Submission Match - WWF - 3/23/1997) Total Points: 2119 # of Ballots: 24 High Vote: Mattsdmf - 1 2021 Finish: 2 (No Change)
I think this is well deserved. This is a true classic that lives up to the hype and reputation.
1. Holy Demon Army vs Kenta Kobashi and Mitsuharu Misawa (AJPW - 6/9/1995) Total Points: 2152 # of Ballots: 24 High Vote: Microstatistics, Cactus, andylfc, Lemming & NintendoLogic - 1 2021 Finish: 1 (No Change)
Can’t say anything bad about it. 4 ballots… 4 top finishes…. It might just simply be the greatest match ever.
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Post by lacelle on Jul 29, 2023 0:36:39 GMT -5
Steiners vs MVC Clash 19 & Rick Martel vs Ric Flair People don't need to use PWO anyway. They just need to use *here*, and even then it would only need to be two posts in order to nominate the matches. Either way I'm interested in what these numbers 2 and 5 are!
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Post by KB8 on Jul 29, 2023 5:20:53 GMT -5
Steiners/MVC is nominated and if Martel v Flair is the All Japan match from 10/21/85 then that one's nominated as well. The Steiners tag was actually one of my late cuts and I want to re-watch it before the next vote.
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Post by Kadaveri on Jul 29, 2023 5:52:11 GMT -5
Flair vs Martel was counted. It's #209 on the "Others Receiving Votes" list.
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Post by [Darren] on Jul 29, 2023 6:35:40 GMT -5
The Nomination Process is a formality that really becomes the heart of the project.
If you want to vote for a match you can vote for them. It’s not strict but we need to weed some things out. We had a slew of matches get thrown onto the nomination process this time that weren’t meant to be serious nominations so a lot of stuff did get lost.
The nomination process is good because it allows for the discussion. As long as you defend it enough, it’s nominated.
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Post by gradykm on Jul 31, 2023 17:59:04 GMT -5
And come on you can't say it's impossible for anyone to in good faith not have 6/9/95 in their Top 100 (and I say that as someone who voted it #2). What if they're just not fans of the 90s AJPW style? Then we’re talking about a favorites list with no intention of comparing on merit which is a concern that has been brought up on here before. Case in point, under no criteria, other than being a personal favorite is Andy Kaufman vs Jimmy Hart better than 6/9/95. That isn’t a personal attack to Elliott who had multiple Kaufman matches on his list. It is again, just an example to drive home the point. If he or anyone else wants to do a comparison I’d love to read it. The HOF idea was just one I tossed out. If it isn’t want the board wants I get it. I’m also not trying to dictate what somebody can or can’t vote for. I get it if you despise AJPW or Lucha, etc. that doesn’t take away the fact both deliver multiple strong top 20 contenders. To deny it is favoritism bias. Or just change the name to Top 100 hardcore favorites of all time. As I type this it all just seems like I’ve blown this silly little hobby list we all enjoy into a dumb pedantic argument. I’m dropping it. Maybe I need to spend my time creating my list in time for 2025. Regardless what makes anyone’s list.
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Post by [Darren] on Jul 31, 2023 18:40:29 GMT -5
We’re not looking to create a consensus “Greatest Matches Ever” list. The objective was always to discuss great matches because obviously there’s no such thing as a consensus greatest anything.
Making cases for great matches outside of the accepted canon is one of the fun things about this space. It looks illustrates that there’s no formula or outline for a great match and that the case to make about a match being great can spark something in somebody else.
Obviously 6/9/95 is a great match. But, so is Andy Kaufman v. Jimmy Hart. Both matches evoke strong emotions in people and both at the same time do nothing for others.
A favorites and greatest list should always have a lot of crossover because we’ll never reach consensus and if we’re just talking about the same matches, that’ll get boring.
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Post by [Darren] on Jul 31, 2023 18:46:41 GMT -5
With the top 5 upon us, I have a proposal that I wanted to run by everyone. It seems the integrity of the project may be getting close to being compromised. I see negative comments regarding the usual suspects always dominating the top of the list, etc. This, to me, looks like the reason for so-called "strategic voting" or "spiteful voting". For example, seeing 6/9/95 in ballots in the 90-100 range or in some cases off ballots completely. Don't get me wrong, I realize voting on subjective art is, well, subjective. And I may be taking this way too seriously. I personally feel that being as objective as possible on a subjective subject that there is no way there are 100 matches (to date) better than 6/9/95. I hate to harp on that match specifically, but since it has been #1 for 3, possibly 4 years running and most of the comments has been regarding it specifically, I chose it as the example. This brings me to my idea. A separate list. A Hall of Fame if you will. Qualifications being that if a match finishes in the top 5 for 4 consecutive years, then it enters the Hall of Fame and becomes ineligible for voting. It would be kind of like an enshrinement. This allows new spots at the top of the bi-annual list and avoids the fun of voting from getting stale or compromised. Currently, now that only the top 5 are left this year, 3 matches qualify for the proposed "Hall of Fame" Mitsuharu Misawa/Kenta Kobashi vs. Toshiaki Kawada/Akira Taue - 6/9/95 (#1 in 2019,2020, 2021. Top 5 vote 2023) Mitsuharu Misawa vs. Kenta Kobashi - 1/20/97 (#3 2019, #5 2020, #3 2021, Top 5 vote 2023) Akira Hokuto vs. Shinobu Kandori - 4/2/93 (#4 2019, #2 2020, #4 2021, Top 5 vote 2023) I never thought this project has the risk of descending into that of nonsense, and I don't think it has. We just have a very wide range of people with different tastes in wrestling. I'm sure some people have rolled their eyes at my ballot for ranking random RINGS matches ahead of other stuff. I think bigger platforms like Cagematch have that issue, but we have a very small group of people who mostly know each other to some degree at the moment. Maybe if this project ever expands to 100+ people, that would be a concern. I think it’s great that we all have a wide range of tastes yet there’s some crossover all around. I’ve discovered as many great Hulk Hogan matches as I have Shoot style and Joshi matches from this board. I have no problem with any match anybody nominated so long as they make their case genuinely.
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Post by elliott on Aug 4, 2023 1:32:36 GMT -5
And come on you can't say it's impossible for anyone to in good faith not have 6/9/95 in their Top 100 (and I say that as someone who voted it #2). What if they're just not fans of the 90s AJPW style? Then we’re talking about a favorites list with no intention of comparing on merit which is a concern that has been brought up on here before. Case in point, under no criteria, other than being a personal favorite is Andy Kaufman vs Jimmy Hart better than 6/9/95. That isn’t a personal attack to Elliott who had multiple Kaufman matches on his list. It is again, just an example to drive home the point. If he or anyone else wants to do a comparison I’d love to read it. The HOF idea was just one I tossed out. If it isn’t want the board wants I get it. I’m also not trying to dictate what somebody can or can’t vote for. I get it if you despise AJPW or Lucha, etc. that doesn’t take away the fact both deliver multiple strong top 20 contenders. To deny it is favoritism bias. Or just change the name to Top 100 hardcore favorites of all time. As I type this it all just seems like I’ve blown this silly little hobby list we all enjoy into a dumb pedantic argument. I’m dropping it. Maybe I need to spend my time creating my list in time for 2025. Regardless what makes anyone’s list. I just saw this. HAHAHAHHAHAAHAHAHAHHAHAHAAHHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Sorry I don't like YOUR favorites.
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Post by gradykm on Aug 4, 2023 9:30:50 GMT -5
Then we’re talking about a favorites list with no intention of comparing on merit which is a concern that has been brought up on here before. Case in point, under no criteria, other than being a personal favorite is Andy Kaufman vs Jimmy Hart better than 6/9/95. . I just saw this. HAHAHAHHAHAAHAHAHAHHAHAHAAHHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Sorry I don't like YOUR favorites. That isn’t an argument and just solidifies my statement. Kaufman/Hart is one of YOUR favorites which is fine. Favorites being the key word. 6/9/95 is one of mine, but by it being #1 on merit four years running while your favorite continues to have you as the lone vote shows that you not liking MY favorite has no real consequence. Just for nothing, I like Kaufman/Hart. I don’t believe it sniffs a top 100 on any criteria. I wrote that it wasn’t a personal attack on you, but it seems you took it that way. For that I apologize.
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Post by elliott on Aug 4, 2023 10:13:36 GMT -5
I wasn't making an argument because your post is laughable & not worth engaging with more than I did.
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Post by Grimmas on Aug 4, 2023 11:02:32 GMT -5
I just saw this. HAHAHAHHAHAAHAHAHAHHAHAHAAHHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Sorry I don't like YOUR favorites. That isn’t an argument and just solidifies my statement. Kaufman/Hart is one of YOUR favorites which is fine. Favorites being the key word. 6/9/95 is one of mine, but by it being #1 on merit four years running while your favorite continues to have you as the lone vote shows that you not liking MY favorite has no real consequence. Just for nothing, I like Kaufman/Hart. I don’t believe it sniffs a top 100 on any criteria. I wrote that it wasn’t a personal attack on you, but it seems you took it that way. For that I apologize. This is very lame. I have about 20 matches I have rated as perfect 10/10, 6/9/95 is not one of them. There is many criteria that would make AJPW be pretty much ignored and push matches like a Kaufman match high up. Why do people who claim to be the most objective about art, always assume that their tastes align with what is "objectively" the best?
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Post by elliott on Aug 4, 2023 12:25:33 GMT -5
That isn’t an argument and just solidifies my statement. Kaufman/Hart is one of YOUR favorites which is fine. Favorites being the key word. 6/9/95 is one of mine, but by it being #1 on merit four years running while your favorite continues to have you as the lone vote shows that you not liking MY favorite has no real consequence. Just for nothing, I like Kaufman/Hart. I don’t believe it sniffs a top 100 on any criteria. I wrote that it wasn’t a personal attack on you, but it seems you took it that way. For that I apologize. This is very lame. I have about 20 matches I have rated as perfect 10/10, 6/9/95 is not one of them. There is many criteria that would make AJPW be pretty much ignored and push matches like a Kaufman match high up. Why do people who claim to be the most objective about art, always assume that their tastes align with what is "objectively" the best?It's funny how that works, isn't it? There is no universal standard for judging art that everyone must adhere to. Someone asserting that there is and that they've cracked the code & anyone who disagrees with them is operating in bad faith is laughable.
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