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Post by gradykm on Aug 4, 2023 14:17:50 GMT -5
It’s fine you find my post laughable. It’s a good way to hand wave my point away without addressing it. Forget 6/9/95, saying Kaufman/Hart is better than only 98 matches that exist to view is the laughable point. I’m challenging that, not attacking you personally.
Grimmas, as for there being many criteria that would put Kaufman matches over AJPW, well, I’d love to hear them and may even agree with some. The tell is that you said AJPW and not specific matches. There is undoubted prejudice against that company as a whole since there is nearly 30 years of internet praise for it. It’s understandable that there would be backlash.
Also, the bit about assuming my tastes are what is objectively the best? Nice straw man. I have tons of matches I love and would consider my favorites or in my “taste.” That doesn’t mean I’d place them in a top 100. It just so happens that 6/9/95 is both a favorite and perhaps the objectively as you can get about art greatest match of all time. It would be better to not be hung up on my examples as it would be to address the underlying point.
There isn’t much more I can say. Darren pointed out what the purpose of this list is. I misunderstood the purpose. It seems to be as simple as that. Vote for whatever you like. I’m not looking to be the catalyst of another 2016 GWE fallout like what happened at PWO. Lists like this is and have always been 100% subjective.
Besides, every wrestling board needs people to be contrarians for the sake of being contrarians. jdw needs successors.
I’m done with this. If anyone would still like to miss my point, please take it to DMs so the fine people of this board can review this thread as intended.
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Post by Grimmas on Aug 4, 2023 14:41:27 GMT -5
Nobody votes for favourites, we are all trying to vote for the best.
I said AJPW, because it's a distinctive style, not out of some prejudice.
Elliott is not voting to be a contrarian. He His views are what he thinks of wrestling.
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Post by elliott on Aug 4, 2023 14:42:41 GMT -5
No matter what I say wouldn't be good enough because you've already made up your mind and are unable to recognize peole might have different points of view.
One day you'll realize that people have different perspectives and values than you do. It doesnt mean they have some agenda. It means they have a different perspective and value different things than you.
Quite frankly this has been me being polite so far. This is the most you've engaged with the project in 2 years. Showing up out of the blue pointing fingers and accusing people of acting in bad faith is bullshit. I've been very clear what I value in wrestling and that's reflected in my list. That's different from the wrestling you think is best. Big deal, get the fuck over it
Why cant Jimmy Hart vs Andy Kaufman be the 99th best match ever? You've made zero argument against it only assertions that it cant possibly be based on whatever arbitrary criteria you are projecting onto everyone. I've said numerous times what I like about that match and wrestling in general. No one should be surprised that I vote for an Andy Kaufman matches. Ive said repeatedly I consider him to be an incredible pro wrestler. Why should I have to write an essay for some stranger who has already made up their mind?
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Post by elliott on Aug 4, 2023 14:50:40 GMT -5
The irony of someone refusing to accept the viewpoints of others while holding 90s AJPW on a pedestal then invoking jdw is almost too much to handle.
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Post by [Darren] on Aug 4, 2023 15:36:57 GMT -5
This happens in all mediums. There is a select group of SOMETHING that are generally accepted as the best. And they’re seldom without merit or justification but they are not objectively good or bad. Personal preferences will always color what you believe is good or bad. I think it’s disingenuous to genuinely attempt to appreciate something, and end up feeling nothing and still call it GREAT.
I have not seen anyone on this board be contrarian for the sake of it. There’s a genuine group here. I’m less worried about contrarian opinions (which are general intriguing) than I am about blindly accepting matches as great without being scrutinized.
Goodfellas is widely accepted as one of the greatest films ever and arguably Scorsese’s best. I hate it and thinkAfter Hours is his true masterpiece. That doesn’t make me a contrarian for the sake of it.
6/9/95 is not objectively great and I point to Kobashi as being the biggest argument against the match.
But still… fuck … it’s wrestling.
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Post by Grimmas on Aug 4, 2023 15:53:50 GMT -5
Really funny Darren, that I think Kobashi is the highlight of that match, since I am not a big fan of Kobashi.
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Post by [Darren] on Aug 4, 2023 16:15:42 GMT -5
Really funny Darren, that I think Kobashi is the highlight of that match, since I am not a big fan of Kobashi. I know Sleeze said that Kobashi’s performance made him cry but I also understand the Criticism that it’s a bit much.
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Post by elliott on Aug 4, 2023 16:27:19 GMT -5
This happens in all mediums. There is a select group of SOMETHING that are generally accepted as the best. And they’re seldom without merit or justification but they are not objectively good or bad. Personal preferences will always color what you believe is good or bad. I think it’s disingenuous to genuinely attempt to appreciate something, and end up feeling nothing and still call it GREAT. I have not seen anyone on this board be contrarian for the sake of it. There’s a genuine group here. I’m less worried about contrarian opinions (which are general intriguing) than I am about blindly accepting matches as great without being scrutinized. Goodfellas is widely accepted as one of the greatest films ever and arguably Scorsese’s best. I hate it and thinkAfter Hours is his true masterpiece. That doesn’t make me a contrarian for the sake of it. 6/9/95 is not objectively great and I point to Kobashi as being the biggest argument against the match. But still… fuck … it’s wrestling. Man, I'd always avoided it but after the Sight & Sound poll I watched Jeanne Dielman and that is the most boring fucking movie ever made.
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Post by [Darren] on Aug 4, 2023 17:30:03 GMT -5
I’m a 37 year old man working 6 days a week with two small children. I fall asleep watching wrestling matches I actually want to watch and I haven’t watched Succession yet.
I can say with 100% certainty that I will never ever ever watch that film.
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Post by elliott on Aug 4, 2023 17:44:11 GMT -5
hahahahhaha
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Post by gradykm on Aug 4, 2023 20:11:01 GMT -5
I guess take it to DMs was lost.
Every post since my last one shows everyone is still missing my initial point by so wide a margin that it may be too far gone to discuss at this point. I appreciate you keeping it nice, we wouldn’t want anyone to get crazy … on a wrestling board.
So again. This can be discussed privately and I’ll be glad to engage and try and reiterate what I am trying to say instead of everyone getting lost in the weeds with the contextual bits. If you want me to respond, DM. Otherwise, I’ll just assume all you want is to have the last word.
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Post by Control21 on Aug 4, 2023 20:40:48 GMT -5
I guess take it to DMs was lost. Every post since my last one shows everyone is still missing my initial point by so wide a margin that it may be too far gone to discuss at this point. I appreciate you keeping it nice, we wouldn’t want anyone to get crazy … on a wrestling board. So again. This can be discussed privately and I’ll be glad to engage and try and reiterate what I am trying to say instead of everyone getting lost in the weeds with the contextual bits. If you want me to respond, DM. Otherwise, I’ll just assume all you want is to have the last word. I don't think this is the type of discussion you should get heated over...professional wrestling is an art, and like any other artform, it is highly subjective. The philosophy behind "art" generally is very wide ranging and the academic discussion around what counts as subjectivity, objectivity, canon, etc, can go on for years without any resolution. Someone may find Mona Lisa to be an "okay" art piece, and then point to some random Socialist Realism painting as a masterpiece. Would this be the common consensus? Probably not, but to them, that's what they appreciate. It does not make their point any less valid, and if they wan to say "Stalin" by Isaak Brodsky is better than Mona Lisa, that is their perogrative. It is just as valid as saying Mona Lisa is better than "Napoleon Crossing the Alps" by Jacques-Louis David. This forum is small group of people from a wrestling forum known for its very wide-ranging opinions so it should be expected we have a very diverse range of taste here. If you feel 6/9/95 is better than almost every wrestling match, that is okay, but you shouldn't come here and suggest people are not being honest about their opinions and question their integrity.
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Post by [Darren] on Aug 4, 2023 20:58:49 GMT -5
Sidebar :What happened after the 2016 GWE? In terms of a fallout? That project is maddening to read through those threads so I try not to.
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Post by Control21 on Aug 4, 2023 21:22:51 GMT -5
Sidebar :What happened after the 2016 GWE? In terms of a fallout? That project is maddening to read through those threads so I try not to. My takeaway is that people got really burnt out by the constant debates, podcasts, etc. Particularly when it came to people pushing their 'canon' favorites like Ric Flair and such.
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Post by elliott on Aug 4, 2023 21:34:21 GMT -5
I guess take it to DMs was lost. Every post since my last one shows everyone is still missing my initial point by so wide a margin that it may be too far gone to discuss at this point. I appreciate you keeping it nice, we wouldn’t want anyone to get crazy … on a wrestling board. So again. This can be discussed privately and I’ll be glad to engage and try and reiterate what I am trying to say instead of everyone getting lost in the weeds with the contextual bits. If you want me to respond, DM. Otherwise, I’ll just assume all you want is to have the last word. Showing up disparaging the integrity of the project & then running to DM's is more weak shit.
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