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Post by elliott on Apr 29, 2019 23:03:42 GMT -5
The whole point of this forum is to discuss the best matches ever. Who says the best squash match can't be 5 stars or a great comedy match can't be considered and why should anyone care that they said it? Theres no "formula needed for a high rating." If someone thinks a comedy match is the best match ever their vote counts as much as anyone else's. Stacey and I once did a podcast breaking down the brilliant psychology of the Survival Tobita Ken the Box matches.
Nominate your matches and make the case. That's the whole point. Everyone is here to revisit old stuff to see if it holds up and to be introduced to new/different stuff they haven't seen.
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Post by kas on Apr 30, 2019 6:05:45 GMT -5
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Post by Cap on Apr 30, 2019 7:08:57 GMT -5
hahaha. I don't really ever get on reddit, but that is more or less how I expected things to go.
As for the issue of Misawa/Kobashi and what types of matches can be the greatest, I am really interested in this. I brought this up years back on PWO during a conversation about star ratings. People were basically saying star ratings suck because they only capture a certain, very narrow part of wrestling as a whole. I think the same sorts of things can be said about a GME list. I agree with that criticism or orientation to stars and to this project in a way, but my response is sort of two fold.
1) Echoing Elliot, I think that is a self imposed kind of thing. There is nothing metaphysically linking "greatness" to any particular criteria. Now, we tried to limit some of the messiness by saying we were sticking to "in ring" for the most part but that still leaves myriad possibilities for how to approach the question. I would say that our list ultimately still represents a relatively narrow range of what wrestling looks like and it is EXTREMELY diverse. I seriously considered Tamura vs Vader and it is a relatively short, squash-esque match. If someone voted for Hogan vs Andre because of its drama and emotion and big fight feel... that is completely fine. When people describe the limitations of greatness I can't help but see those as self imposed. Sure people will argue and question, but there is no governing body of greatness in wrestling. If one person doesn't think a squash match or a comedy match or a deathmatch or an indy match can qualify as "greatest"... cool, don't for them. If you do... make the case.
2) Lets table all of that and say we are going to come in line with the general expectations of greatness and debate within that. That is - more or less, I think - what happened here. I also don't think there is anything wrong with accepting we are interested in diving into this one slice of wrestling. I still enjoy other parts of wrestling outside the project.
As for the critique of Kobashi/Misawa. I think its fascinating. I am interesting in scathing critiques of nearly universally appreciated matches. I don't agree, but who gives a fuck? I think what prowresblog dislikes about the match are a lot of selling points for some people. I like that it was sort of a blend between a technical match and a bombfest. I don't mind sort of crazy kick outs if they are built to in a way that sucks me in (this case). That is why on my list I have some select high end AJPW matches, but I don't have some matches that some rank alongside or just under the more universal classics. Its fine lines like "how did you get me to your excessive, super kickout fest finish". I feel much the same way about the builds in modern NJPW matches.
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Post by Cap on Apr 30, 2019 7:40:22 GMT -5
hahaha... i love the guy on reddit who said "you just copied meltzer, kid"
What a gem...
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Post by nintendologic on Apr 30, 2019 8:15:05 GMT -5
The top comment in the Reddit thread has a whopping five points as I type this. And the comment calling it a King's Road hipster list has more downvotes than upvotes. Which is about what I expected. I know that some like to imagine that being told that Lesnar/Reigns is better than HBK/Undertaker sends the typical fan into paroxysms of rage, but that isn't the case. The truth is, most of them are quite accepting of different perspectives as long as they're not presented in a defiantly oppositional "look at how brilliant and contrarian I am unlike all you mindless sheep who blindly parrot what Meltzer thinks" manner. It's like when the Wrestling KO guys would post the WKO100 on other forums. Most of the time, the only reaction it would get would be a couple of comments to the effect of "They think Mark Henry is better than Kurt Angle? Um...cool, I guess."
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Post by superstarsleeze on Apr 30, 2019 12:35:00 GMT -5
The biggest thing that stood out to me is that we got to get PeteF3 aboard this coming year!
The other funny thing is how many people thought we worked together on this list as if The Omega, Okada picks were token picks.
The whole you don't really like "X" you just like it to seem cool or smart is such an annoying, stupid argument.
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Post by microstatistics on Apr 30, 2019 12:43:21 GMT -5
Wow, those comments are worse than I expected. The list somehow heavily favors everything before 2000 yet has recency bias. It somehow parrots Meltzer's opinions while being too cool and hip to acknowledge the greatness of modern New Japan.
"I refuse to accept any top 100 list that doesn't have Shawn Michaels VS Undertaker from WrestleMania 25 on it. Especially when Brock VS Roman is #48."
That seems about right.
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Post by Kadaveri on Apr 30, 2019 13:14:40 GMT -5
I knew the Wreddit crowd would get annoyed at Brock vs. Roman being on there. It's a hotbed for fans who follow booking and pushes rather than the wrestling itself, so just associate that match with 'urghh Roman Reigns being forced down our throats' and barely even remember the match itself.
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Post by elliott on Apr 30, 2019 13:38:46 GMT -5
I think I might need to make an account and post my list there haha
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Post by kas on Apr 30, 2019 14:08:09 GMT -5
I knew the Wreddit crowd would get annoyed at Brock vs. Roman being on there. It's a hotbed for fans who follow booking and pushes rather than the wrestling itself, so just associate that match with 'urghh Roman Reigns being forced down our throats' and barely even remember the match itself. To be fair, before mania 34 wreddit adored that match, I think the disappointment of their mania 34 match muddied the mania 31 match for a lot of them
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Post by Cap on Apr 30, 2019 14:26:07 GMT -5
I think Mania 34 killed a lot of the fond memories of that match, which is funny because I didn't like the 31 match as much as some (loved the match, wasn't as wild about the finish) and I liked the 34 match more than most. The 31 match is still WAY WAY better, but you get it.
Elliot you should go post your list. I imagine there would be people who shit on any list that got posted, honestly, but yours might make some brains melt.
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Post by pterois on Apr 30, 2019 14:45:44 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure they haven't heard of half of the matches from Elliot's list.
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Post by nintendologic on Apr 30, 2019 15:57:56 GMT -5
I can pretty well guarantee that elliott's list will not cause any brains to melt. I'm sure hardly anyone will agree with his selections, but the vast majority simply won't care. A list by itself without any commentary doesn't really leave room for discussion. If I'm not privy to the thought process behind your selections and only see the finished product, how am I supposed to respond?
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Post by Cap on Apr 30, 2019 16:22:41 GMT -5
I guess I would expect more apathy to something like Elliot's list.
Oh well, I don't do reddit s I don't really care.
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Post by elliott on Apr 30, 2019 19:04:13 GMT -5
I thought the arm work in misawa/kobashi was outstanding and one of the reasons it resonates with me more than a lot of these type of matches.
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