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Post by nintendologic on Jan 20, 2021 12:01:43 GMT -5
Get Kawada outta there and that frees up a spot  I disagree with this, but I appreciate your willingness to go out on a limb. As awesome as Kawada is, the fact that his biggest fans are so insufferable makes me want to hate the guy. |
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Post by tetsujin on Jan 20, 2021 12:38:56 GMT -5
Don't think Kawada would remain at the top 10 right now but I don't see him falling down very far away. Like, top 15-20 or something. I'm more interested in Taue and Jun's placements and if they're treated in similar ways than the other Pillars, because the narrative of both guys not being as great as Misawa/Kobashi/Kawada is practically abandoned right now.
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Post by fxnj on Jan 20, 2021 13:05:39 GMT -5
Looking at the 2016 results, I'm kinda worried about most of the 80s U.S. wrestlers there. I mean, Flair, Funk and Lawler in a lesser degree, all three will still be #1 contenders, but I don't know if guys like Bockwinkel, Rose, Steamboat, Savage, Whindham, Anderson, Blanchard, Dundee, Murdoch, DiBiase etc will place as high as last time. Idk why, but I feel like having the 00s and possibly even the 10s in bigger consideration this time might go against most of the 80s workers. Wasn't the deal there that 2016 project got a bunch of last minute votes from people who didn't participate in the discussion, which ended up skewing things heavily to 80's US wrestlers? Even at the time, I remember a lot of people feeling that the results didn't reflect the discussion that happened in the board. I predict a lot more diversity in this smaller scale 2021 project. |
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Post by Cap on Jan 20, 2021 13:13:11 GMT -5
Kawada would make my top 100, but I'm not sure he would be in the top 50.
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Post by witlon on Jan 20, 2021 13:44:39 GMT -5
Looking at the 2016 results, I'm kinda worried about most of the 80s U.S. wrestlers there. I mean, Flair, Funk and Lawler in a lesser degree, all three will still be #1 contenders, but I don't know if guys like Bockwinkel, Rose, Steamboat, Savage, Whindham, Anderson, Blanchard, Dundee, Murdoch, DiBiase etc will place as high as last time. Idk why, but I feel like having the 00s and possibly even the 10s in bigger consideration this time might go against most of the 80s workers. Wasn't the deal there that 2016 project got a bunch of last minute votes from people who didn't participate in the discussion, which ended up skewing things heavily to 80's US wrestlers? Even at the time, I remember a lot of people feeling that the results didn't reflect the discussion that happened in the board. I predict a lot more diversity in this smaller scale 2021 project. I think a lot of it was the intimidation factor, if you will. A lot of people don't want to be told their opinion is 'incorrect', and whether it would actually happen or not during the project, sometimes staying off the discussion is just...easier, so to speak, than trying to champion something you really like. I mean, no matter how subjective it is, it's much easier to just say 'Oh, Jumbo's my guy, and the case is already made for him, so I don't need to add to discussion with things that are already said' than to go in there and push some more, likely saying the same things. Mind you, I'm saying this as someone who watched hundreds of hours of wrestling over the 18 month original project, and barely commented on anyone due to that mentality. Being comfortable with your opinions and fandom is kind of tough sometimes, ya know? |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2021 13:55:30 GMT -5
GWE was fun, I preferred to scan PWO and talk about the project with a mate over beers, plus with people on the Taima channel he put together. Understandably guys like Omega and Okada will be in the mix this time around, looking forward to casting an eye over it.
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Post by Cap on Jan 20, 2021 15:15:55 GMT -5
I think Witlon's point is spot on. I was literally logging on to reply with a not-unrelated thought that popped in my head: that if I do this I will take it seriously and I will probaly engage in more discussion than I should (time wise), but I will probably not find a lot of motivation to defend my choices beyond, I think this person is better than that person for what I like in wrestling. I don't suspect some will find that helpful.
To witlon's point about 2016, thorough discussion is great in theory, but it is harder in practice. I think so many people on the project (especially the most vocal) were so knowledgeable and could summon such detail in their discussion that even other SUPER knowledgeable fans could be intimidated. I also find it pretty hard to read how to take certain comments on forums. There is a big difference between one of my friends telling me my take on something sucks and someone I don't know doing it. It is pretty easy for conversations or debates to innocently and accidentally slip into not helpful territory. So I really sympathize with those who didn't discuss as much. To a much lesser degree we have voters here who speak up a lot less, which is fine.
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Post by tetsujin on Jan 20, 2021 17:56:58 GMT -5
My only impediment to not participating as much as I want in all these conversations and stuff is my not-so-great english. Otherwise, I think it's still interesting to share and defend your point of view, specially if you're new to something, because sometimes an expert eye can't consider some things that new guys do. For example, when I started to dive deep into lucha, I remember arguing with a friend about the 2/3 Falls gimmick and how its overuse made almost every apuestas match the same, but he was a lucha fan for so long that he simply assumed that an apuestas match *should* be like that because "that's the point". Idk if it's a silly example of what I'm trying yo say, but I really think people with not-that-much knowledge of [insert x style/promotion/worker/whatever] can bring very interesting point of views. So don't be afraid.
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Post by bossrock on Jan 20, 2021 17:57:24 GMT -5
The Kawada blasphemy is astounding. Top 3.
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Post by Cap on Jan 20, 2021 18:11:44 GMT -5
My only impediment to not participating as much as I want in all these conversations and stuff is my not-so-great english. Otherwise, I think it's still interesting to share and defend your point of view, specially if you're new to something, because sometimes an expert eye can't consider some things that new guys do. For example, when I started to dive deep into lucha, I remember arguing with a friend about the 2/3 Falls gimmick and how its overuse made almost every apuestas match the same, but he was a lucha fan for so long that he simply assumed that an apuestas match *should* be like that because "that's the point". Idk if it's a silly example of what I'm trying yo say, but I really think people with not-that-much knowledge of [insert x style/promotion/worker/whatever] can bring very interesting point of views. So don't be afraid. I totally agree, but I think it is sometimes hard to believe that in the moment when you are the "new fan" to something among so many others who have vast knowledge. I mean ultimately, I am for open discussion and debate and hearing everyone it. It is just often easier said than done and I personally think the 2016 GWE project highlighted a lot of those (for better or worse).
For what it is worse, I almost always forget that English isn't your first language so your english is just fine.
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Post by elliott on Jan 20, 2021 18:56:25 GMT -5
The Kawada blasphemy is astounding. Top 3. He's one of the Top 4 Pillars. I'll give you that |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2021 22:06:56 GMT -5
My only impediment to not participating as much as I want in all these conversations and stuff is my not-so-great english. Otherwise, I think it's still interesting to share and defend your point of view, specially if you're new to something, because sometimes an expert eye can't consider some things that new guys do. For example, when I started to dive deep into lucha, I remember arguing with a friend about the 2/3 Falls gimmick and how its overuse made almost every apuestas match the same, but he was a lucha fan for so long that he simply assumed that an apuestas match *should* be like that because "that's the point". Idk if it's a silly example of what I'm trying yo say, but I really think people with not-that-much knowledge of [insert x style/promotion/worker/whatever] can bring very interesting point of views. So don't be afraid. I totally agree, but I think it is sometimes hard to believe that in the moment when you are the "new fan" to something among so many others who have vast knowledge. I mean ultimately, I am for open discussion and debate and hearing everyone it. It is just often easier said than done and I personally think the 2016 GWE project highlighted a lot of those (for better or worse).
For what it is worse, I almost always forget that English isn't your first language so your english is just fine.
I think another barrier for me was that in 2016 I was completely new to any wrestling that wasn't 97-05 WWF, so I felt I didn't really have anything to add apart from "Stone Cold and Eddie were cool". And when something is so subjective it felt like only a few views put forth were really detailed and engaging, rather than "this guy had a long run and he was great on the mat". Matt D about Bockwinkel and Elliott about Satanico were the most engaging and fun to read. And it's hard to be objective too because now I would feel my input would be too dry and clinical taking that non-workrate approach. For example, I checked again and saw that Ikeda and Virus were #100 and #99 on the 2016 list. I love watching both and remember putting them on my ballot but objectively neither is "greater" than someone like Inoki who was on top forever, drew tonnes of money, founded a promotion and helped sow the seeds for MMA. I like Inoki but he didn't make my ballot nor the top 100. I'd rather watch Ikeda and Virus most of the time. |
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Post by KB8 on Jan 21, 2021 8:03:20 GMT -5
I've been periodically (partly out of boredom, partly because I like lists) going back and rejigging my GWE ballot since 2016, so I'd be down for doing some sort of GWE this year as well.
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Post by bossrock on Jan 21, 2021 10:09:50 GMT -5
I've been periodically (partly out of boredom, partly because I like lists) going back and rejigging my GWE ballot since 2016, so I'd be down for doing some sort of GWE this year as well. Lists are always good. |
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Post by witlon on Jan 21, 2021 10:10:12 GMT -5
Yeah, with all the discussion aside, I'd definitely be interested in a 'gutcheck', as it was called on PWO, list. That way, I can see where I need to focus when I go into full mode for the 2026 list and such (which definitely won't be to the crazy extent of the 2016 list, that's for sure). I can't say my fandom has changed that much, but the discussion about blindspots or styles that I don't prefer could be beneficial in watching going forward.
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