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Post by Cap on Jan 21, 2021 10:42:15 GMT -5
Jesus Christ.... I just read back my last post. I wasn't even drinking. I was just in a hurry. Yikes.
It seems like quite a few people are interested. I don't want to step on any other projects toes. Do you all think we should start a little sub forum here? Is someone willing to head it up and organize/collect/calculate? Should we explore this other GWE 2021 project that was mentioned over at PWO?
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Post by KB8 on Jan 21, 2021 12:05:10 GMT -5
My list wouldn't necessarily be substantially different from 2016, but there'd be a few names making big jumps one way or the other (there were certainly a few on the one I posted here last year when we were all bored stupid during the first lockdown and this topic came up).
As an example, I sort of deep-dived joshi in 2016 for the first time in about ten years, but ultimately I came away from it feeling the same about the style as I always had - it's not really for me and probably never will be, even if there are obviously a few joshi wrestlers who are clearly great (and made my list). Then towards the end of last year I basically did it again, but this time I came away enjoying the style more than I ever have before. People like Yoshida and Kandori who did well on my 2016 list would do even better this time, and I think on the whole I'd rep more joshi wrestlers than I did five years ago. I've also gone through Puerto Rico now, while in 2016 the DVDVR set hadn't dropped yet so that was still a blind spot (not just with folk like Invader I, but someone like Funk whose stuff there might be my favourite of his entire career, giving a guy who did well on my list originally even more of a bump).
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Post by Cap on Jan 21, 2021 15:36:57 GMT -5
GWE was fun, I preferred to scan PWO and talk about the project with a mate over beers, plus with people on the Taima channel he put together. Understandably guys like Omega and Okada will be in the mix this time around, looking forward to casting an eye over it. So..... this is also a statement that resonated with me. If we did do something for 2021 and anyone else would be down for some zoom beers (or tea or coffee or whatever floats your boat) and real time GWE chat (or GME or whatever) every once in a while I'd be kinda into that. Just an idea to float out there.
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Post by bossrock on Jan 21, 2021 16:46:07 GMT -5
Sure!
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Post by elliott on Jan 21, 2021 19:09:53 GMT -5
That sounds fun!
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Post by Cap on Jan 23, 2021 16:05:34 GMT -5
man... i just ran into a thread talking about/complaining about the 2021 GWE thing that alan is doing or something and then going back to talk about the 2016 project on twitter and some that participated... yikes. This is exactly why i didn't do the 2016 project and exactly why I wanted something slightly different here. People seem to have very strong and very specific ideas about what a big project should be. Mix that with the investment we all naturally want for this and man... it pulls some weird stuff out of fans (weird to me at least).
I don't know. Outside of this board, I am very much at the periphery of most of these communities and conversations so maybe I am missing something. Maybe I am too happy go lucky. Maybe its something else. It just seemed timely since I rarely run into that on twitter and we were just talking about it here.
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Post by nintendologic on Jan 23, 2021 16:55:39 GMT -5
Don't think Kawada would remain at the top 10 right now but I don't see him falling down very far away. Like, top 15-20 or something. I'm more interested in Taue and Jun's placements and if they're treated in similar ways than the other Pillars, because the narrative of both guys not being as great as Misawa/Kobashi/Kawada is practically abandoned right now.I'm curious as to where you got this idea from. I suppose Akiyama has closed the gap somewhat largely due to longevity, but I'm certain the overwhelming consensus remains that Taue was the clear #4 among the Pillars. There is increasing recognition that he was a legitimately great wrestler rather than a guy who was simply along for the ride, but that's a far cry from being on the same level as the other three. I agree that Kawada is most likely of the Misawa/Kawada/Kobashi triumvirate to fall out of the top 10. I can't see him falling out of the top 15, though. Jumbo and Tenryu seem likely to leapfrog him, and luchadores like Eddie Guerrero have a good shot as well. On the other hand, I'm sure the voter pool will be much smaller than it was last time, so 80s/90s US guys who finished incongruously high by virtue of being on almost everyone's ballot seem likely to fall off.
Speaking of US guys, AJ Styles is an interesting case. A few years ago, when he was starting to get serious GOAT buzz in some circles, I figured he'd be a lock for the top 20 with an outside shot at the top 10. But now that he's started to slow down/mail it in, he'll probably end up being a victim of recency bias. He may still get some #1 votes, but not nearly as many.
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Post by elliott on Jan 23, 2021 17:45:33 GMT -5
man... i just ran into a thread talking about/complaining about the 2021 GWE thing that alan is doing or something and then going back to talk about the 2016 project on twitter and some that participated... yikes. This is exactly why i didn't do the 2016 project and exactly why I wanted something slightly different here. People seem to have very strong and very specific ideas about what a big project should be. Mix that with the investment we all naturally want for this and man... it pulls some weird stuff out of fans (weird to me at least). I don't know. Outside of this board, I am very much at the periphery of most of these communities and conversations so maybe I am missing something. Maybe I am too happy go lucky. Maybe its something else. It just seemed timely since I rarely run into that on twitter and we were just talking about it here. I think its important to set clear criteria. Is it all about In Ring Work or is being a big star something to factor in. Nobody running the project ever drew a line in the sand and said "this is what this is about." I thought it was obvious it was supposed to be about in ring work because making a list of the biggest stars in wrestling isn't what the PWO community (or footage collector community or whatever) was ever about. Anytime people would come in and bitch about why Hogan wasn't considered the defacto #1 or how someone could vote for indy wrestlers because they worked in small places I would do a hard eye roll I n't know why folks so willingly played into that shit. CLearly it was about in ring work and not how cool Jake Roberts' promos or Ted Dibiase's skits were. The biggest issues with GWE in my mind were Loss saying he wasn't going to participate over and over again and then trolling everybody and trying to make the entire project about his favorite and how unfairly he was being treated (Flair). And then Von Kramer obviously trolling everybody and nobody understanding and playing into it. Really removing Von Kramer from the project immediately would have fixed a lot of the problems with the process and would have made it a lot more fun.
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Post by Cap on Jan 23, 2021 18:05:44 GMT -5
Was von kramer honestly trolling though? I genuinely ask because I couldn't tell at the time. Was he really fucking with the process or did he genuinely believe in what he was saying and the system he set up and so on? Didn't he get actively upset at the results? I think there is a difference between those two things, even if not in effect
I'm curious because I remember him being a key part of it all and he comes up over and over and over (here, pwo, and twitter sometimes).
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2021 19:06:17 GMT -5
man... i just ran into a thread talking about/complaining about the 2021 GWE thing that alan is doing or something and then going back to talk about the 2016 project on twitter and some that participated... yikes. This is exactly why i didn't do the 2016 project and exactly why I wanted something slightly different here. People seem to have very strong and very specific ideas about what a big project should be. Mix that with the investment we all naturally want for this and man... it pulls some weird stuff out of fans (weird to me at least). I don't know. Outside of this board, I am very much at the periphery of most of these communities and conversations so maybe I am missing something. Maybe I am too happy go lucky. Maybe its something else. It just seemed timely since I rarely run into that on twitter and we were just talking about it here. I think its important to set clear criteria. Is it all about In Ring Work or is being a big star something to factor in. Nobody running the project ever drew a line in the sand and said "this is what this is about." I thought it was obvious it was supposed to be about in ring work because making a list of the biggest stars in wrestling isn't what the PWO community (or footage collector community or whatever) was ever about. Anytime people would come in and bitch about why Hogan wasn't considered the defacto #1 or how someone could vote for indy wrestlers because they worked in small places I would do a hard eye roll I n't know why folks so willingly played into that shit. CLearly it was about in ring work and not how cool Jake Roberts' promos or Ted Dibiase's skits were. The biggest issues with GWE in my mind were Loss saying he wasn't going to participate over and over again and then trolling everybody and trying to make the entire project about his favorite and how unfairly he was being treated (Flair). And then Von Kramer obviously trolling everybody and nobody understanding and playing into it. Really removing Von Kramer from the project immediately would have fixed a lot of the problems with the process and would have made it a lot more fun. I don't believe he was trolling. I think he genuinely believed he had reached a higher state than the rest of the board because of his "objective" BIGLUV?/BAGLUV? system and came across as a smug twat. Then he moaned about how Flair was being held to higher scrutiny than other contenders yet people were saying Flair was in the upper part of their ballots even though they could pick holes in his case as the goat. Watching stuff on Taima and chatting with people there felt more beneficial and fun.
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Post by elliott on Jan 23, 2021 19:25:09 GMT -5
Yeah that's what i was gonna say. I guess it wasn't technically trolling because I think he believed a lot of what he was saying. It was a first cousin of trolling and just as harmful (if not more) because people gave him so much attention. I thought he was pretty clearly acting in bad faith. But that preceded the GWE project. No idea why people fell for his schtick.
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Post by elliott on Jan 23, 2021 20:50:13 GMT -5
Anyway, I look back on the project fondly. For whatever complaints I or others may have, there are plenty of positives to glean from it. Like Daisuke Ikeda ranking 100th is awesome. Dick Togo at 71 is awesome. Buddy Rose ranking 36th is a fucking victory in my book. Sure I think he's way better but for him to land that high before the Portland set dropped is crazy. Terry Funk & Hansen finishing 2-3 is fantastic. And on and on.
100% more positive experience than negative.
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Post by Cap on Jan 23, 2021 22:29:09 GMT -5
I didn't mean to disparage the project at all. It just really frustrated me in a lot of ways because of how divisive it became. It just always seems silly for me when wrestling becomes genuinely divisive.
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Post by elliott on Jan 24, 2021 0:09:56 GMT -5
Agreed. It was mostly aimed at myself for pointing out issues I had with the project. I had a lot of fun participating.
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Post by witlon on Jan 24, 2021 8:52:38 GMT -5
I think it was on a podcast, it might've even been the one where GWE was announced, (I think it was) Loss said something to the effect of, "We're only rating in ring, not drawing power, promos or anything like that, because most of us only speak one language don't understand Spanish or Japanese." And I kind of took that to heart when I did my 2016 list. In ring charisma isn't a bad thing, and can certainly be quantified on film, but promos really just can't.
Would I prefer everyone vote that way? Sure. And I think most did, to be honest. But that being said, a lot of people like things like Kurt Angle and post-comeback Shawn Michaels much, much more than I do, anyway, so we're back in the subjectivity of it, anyway.
I mean, I think the project's biggest success, as noted here is simply that people would see names and jump out of their comfort zone to watch people they might not have before. I don't know that without GWE I wouldn't have been so high on someone like Negro Casas or Tamura/Han, etc.; because they're not the style of wrestling I typically watch. I think that's more of the overarching thought that JVK was having. Not everyone is going to say, 'Oh, I want a complete list.' They're saying, 'I enjoy this kind of wrestling and I'm going to spend 40 minutes and just throw a list together based on that.'
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