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Post by tetsujin on Jan 18, 2021 20:01:58 GMT -5
I wanted to do a post like this since 2021 arrived, because now we're midway through another Top 100 GWE. I started following PWO and other english wrestling forums because of 2016's GWE, and that experience was very important to me as a wrestling fan, because it made me realize how much good, great and legendary wrestling and wrestlers were outside my WWE/NJPW/90s AJPW bubble. Five years later, here we are, and there's still five years to come before another GWE fever (if people do it again, first of all), so... What has changed since 2016? What can still change in this last five years? Which wrestlers were overrated or underrated? Which tendencies had been challenged? How different your 2026 list would be right now compared to your 2016 list (if you were there are that time following the project ir just being a wrestling fan)?
Looking back at the 2016 results, I have a couple of feelings I wanna share:
-Flair's number one spot is more disputed than ever. I think Kobashi has regained the "best of the Pillars" trophy to most people's eyes; Terry Funk, which finished second already, has gained a lot of support as well; top tier shooters and luchadores might not be that uncommon to see them toe to toe against any other #1 contender as before...
-Daniel Bryan in the top 5 is not going to change. We all knew back in 2016 he had become one of the greatest, but maybe #5 was a bit too much and just an expression of our respect as fans for his retirement the year before, right?... But damn, he came back at early 2018 and since then has been as amazing as ever. His heel run was fucking brilliant. He's still at great level, bringing the best out of everyone he faces. And his older stuff, now even older, remains untouchable for the most part.
-More joshi power. Last time, only Aja, Hokuto, Nakano and Toyota had spots, but only Aja made the top 50. This time, not only do I think at least Hokuto and ver will improve their former positions, but I've seen Shinobu Kandori's popularity in these circles increase drastically, and maybe even Hotta, Masami, Kansai, Ozaki or Yokota could have a chance if they continue yo amaze more people (they're doing it with me at least).
-As I said, I think top tier shooters and luchadores can fight for higher spots against more classic options next time. There's almost nobody in these kind of communities that doesn't see people like Tamura, Han, Fujiwara, Casas, Santito or Satánico as elite wrestlers. In 2016, iirc all these guys were at the middle of the list except for Casas (#23?) and Hijo del Santo (also twenty-something). I might see all of these workers with chances of making the top 20 at least, now. Would be awesome.
I'm planning on giving a provisional top 50 or something later on (not thinking too much about it, just droping names of the wrestlers I'm considering the most). But what do you guys think of all this? What do you think has changed since 2016 GWE, what is still changing or has the potential to change, and what are your personal wishes for 2026 list? And also, what tendencies or canons have been reinforced after five years (we all know the Pillars are still great for example... do we?)?
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Post by Cap on Jan 18, 2021 20:49:48 GMT -5
Really interesting post. I know there is some revisiting of the project from time to time over on PWO and I saw recently that there is talk of a smaller scale 2021 project. Much like Tetsujin the GWE project is what got me into PWO and was what got me to start thinking about expanding my wrestling horizons. I didn't submit a list, but it really did change my fandom.
I think I generally agree with most of what tetsujin points out here....
I still think Flair would take #1 (but that is very dependent on voting population. I think both Funk and Kobashi could take the spot. The general narrative around Kobashi seemed relatively low at the time indeed. It always baffled me, but I suppose that is how things go.
I also think Bryan would finish really well. I do think people recognize his greatness, but he doesn't feel like his buzz or sentiment is as high. I would suspect there would be lots of comparing him to Styles and my feeling is that a lot of Style's biggest champions win the rhetorical battle if it happened today. Similar to how the general narrative around Kobashi was low (he still finished #8, so its all relative) I suspect Bryan might get the same treatment depending on when the conversation happens. I'd be surprised if he fell out of the top 15 or even 10 though. The problem with his case since 2016 is that it so much of it is built on him just going in and making the most with whatever they give him. It isn't always flashy and it doesn't always stand out. PWO is a place where that kind of thing is appreciated, but depending on who all votes...
My ballot (if I ever submit one for something like this) will have quite a bit of Joshi. I do think there were far too few in the top 100. I think quite a few should get a little more love. Obviously, for me Kandori tops that list because I am absurdly high on her. Tetsujin provides a good list there of others as well. I'd add Nagayo as well.
I would be a little surprised if top shoot guys or luchador moved up much. Maybe someone catches fire in terms of reputation. I think they SHOULD... but I'm just not sure. I just suspect too much variety and too many people who haven't really dug into those styles (or for whom those styles don't resonate) to be voting at any time. Look at the top 30-50, they would need a big portion of the vote to make a run past a lot of those names.
Just taking a quick glance at the list.
I wonder if folks like Arn and Eaton will drop back down to earth a bit. It isn't that they aren't great and perhaps deserve their finish, but Eaton at 28 and Arn at 19 (for example) really jump out as maybe being the product of some narrative momentum. There are others in that top 100. Again, not at all a knock them, but these things are always going to be somewhat dependent upon who people are talking about and talking up I suspect. Pendulums swing... that's all.
I would be really interested to see where people like Okada, Omega, and Cody land overall. I don't suspect - unless there is a big shift - that they would get into that true top/elite tier, but I would be interested to see if those rose given how each has had arguably the best years on their resume so far since the last ballot (decisive as they might be)
I will always be interested in where someone like Hogan or The Rock lands, people who were no slouch in the ring, but who's wrestling ability often has to be "reclaimed" because they are so much larger than their in ring work.
Brock is another one that would really be compelling. He has some very focal detractors (and did during the project if I remember right). He is up there with other really decisive figures. I think he is an all timer for sure, but I know some really hate him and I'm mot sure much of what he has done since 2016 has cleared anything up for people.
Maybe the most interesting person to me would be Goldberg honestly. The Goldberg reclamation project has been in full effect for some time. I don't have a sense for the buzz for him (or lack thereof) over on PWO, but the voting wasn't limited to the most vocal folks over there last time. I think if you did the vote today he would have his champions. 265 isn't bad... I wouldn't be surprised if he finished a bit better. I'm just the opposite on this one. I'm not a huge fan.
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Post by bossrock on Jan 18, 2021 21:57:14 GMT -5
Same with Cap and Tetsujin, the GWE list was my intro to PWO. It also served as a gateway to wrestling outside of just WWE, TNA, and LU. It really opened my eyes to all these different organizations and great wrestlers that I knew nothing about. It also changed how I viewed a lot of wrestlers. Before I saw Terry Funk at #2, I thought he was just that crazy hardcore guy. And I knew Rey was good, great even, but not that he was held in such high regard as to finish in the top 10. Now I know that Funk was one of the most versatile wrestlers ever and Rey's longevity absolutely warrants top 10 consideration.
In regards to Kobashi, I recall reading a tweet from Dylan Hales about how years ago Kobashi being viewed as the "best" pillar would have been unthinkable. That seems shocking to me when he seems to be so universally beloved by this circle and others I've observed. 8 is absolutely nothing to wave a finger at, but I agree that he has the potential to finish even higher by 2026.
Bryan is definitely still a top 10 contender. I think A.J's rank goes up as well considering how well his WWE run has (mostly) gone. Flair at 1 wouldn't surprise me, but I recall seeing a thread on PWO arguing against Flair's case so it's definitely not a lock.
Regarding lucha, I recall perusing the postmortem thread of the 2016 list and saw how many were upset at the lack of lucha wrestlers. I found that surprising since Virus, L.A. Park, Sangre Chicana, Atlantis, Blue Panther, Satanico, Dandy, Santito, and Casas all finished in the top 100, (Casas, Satanico, Dandy, and Santito 4 making the top 40). If anything, joshi took the biggest hit. Quite a few wrestlers like Ozaki and Kansai who made the 2006 list missed the cut in 2016. I think joshi does better next time around, including those who made it last time. I think Toyota in particular does better as she still seems beloved by a large group of fans and criticisms towards her have been tempered to "Yes she had her flaws, but at her best she was great".
The possible addition of current NJPW wrestlers will be interesting. I think Tanahashi retains a spot and does even better considering his consistency in big match situations. I think Okada is very likely to earn a spot as well, but probably doesn't have enough support to crack the top 50. Omega will rank very highly on some ballots but is still so polarizing I think he misses the cut. Naito seems like a toss-up. I'm also curious to see how indie darlings both current and past fair. I think Hero has a great shot to make it this year and possibly even Sabre and WALTER.
It will certainly be interesting to see how the next few years go.
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Post by elliott on Jan 18, 2021 21:59:53 GMT -5
When looking back at the GWE list, I think its more instructive to look at average placement than overall placement. Bobby Eaton is one spot ahead of El Hijo del Santo on the final list, but Santo's average vote is much more impressive: 22.5 average for Santo, 41.4 for Eaton. Eaton was on more ballots because more of the voting pool had seen him. Santo was hurt overall by biases in the voting community. If we were going by average vote, Santo would be in the top 15. Still low but not outrageous.
Pure shoot style folks are difficult. I'm as big of a fan of Kiyoshi Tamura as anyone. But when it comes down to an all time list and you're comparing a dude with 120 matches in his career with someone like Stan Hansen its difficult to figure out what to do with that. Tamura and Han will always be hurt by that workload question and the niche style issue. I'd have all of Tamura, Volk Han and Fujiwara in my top 10-12ish personally. But I can understand seeing them as elite but then punishing them for a lack of matches.
I don't agree with Flair at #1, but I'm at peace with it. I think it is inevitable Danielson becomes the defacto #1 at some point. I thought one of the great victories of the GWE vote was Terry Funk & Hansen finishing 2 & 3.
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Post by elliott on Jan 18, 2021 22:10:26 GMT -5
Jan 18, 2021 21:57:14 GMT -5 bossrock said: This is absolutely true. It was the jdw influence. There was a Kawada camp and a Kobashi camp. I think like every other thread at PWO for a stretch was arguing against Flair's case. Hahaha! The disappointment was that no luchadore made the top 20. Only one in the top 28. I made as comprehensive a case for Satanico as anyone made for any wrestler other than Flair and Satanico only made 83 out of 150+ ballots. Disappointing. All of the top Luchadores finishing behind people like Arn or Bret Hart is disappointing. Predictable, but disappointing nonetheless.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2021 22:18:48 GMT -5
Much like my GME ballot, my GWE ballot was hastily smashed together and would look completely different now. I had Funk #1, Flair #2 and Hansen #3. Won't make another ballot but interested to see how things have shifted in five years.
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Post by elliott on Jan 18, 2021 22:35:29 GMT -5
Yall wanna do a GWE vote?
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Post by bossrock on Jan 19, 2021 0:56:55 GMT -5
Sure!
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Post by elliott on Jan 19, 2021 1:17:47 GMT -5
Top 50 or 100?
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Post by tetsujin on Jan 19, 2021 3:38:57 GMT -5
Top 100 would be better imo.
Pretty agree with the current guys bossrock said. Personally I think Tanahashi in these last years, specially 16-18, has cemented himself as a living legend and someone at the status of guys like Jumbo or Tenryu. Now that the 10s decade is over, a lot of people would think he was the WOTD for sure. 10s New Japan, if GWE happened now, would have incredible impact on the list, I think (not just Tana would probably be higher, I can see Okada, Ishii, Naito and even Omega making it). But also this NEW NJPW buzz has been losing track imho since 2018, and last year was one of the worst I've ever seen the company, at both booking and number of great matches. I think Hiromu Takahashi is a guy destined to be one of the greatest ever, but these next five years will be very important for a hipotetic case of him making the top 100. Outside New Japan, I think only Roman Reigns has enough reputation to maybe make It... Maybe Shingo Takagi and Daisuke Sekimoto as well, but those seem to me more like niche picks still.
Personally i'm not a fan of counting current generation wrestlers for this kind of project though, I think we should wait until we can have a more complete and retrospective look at their careers. It's not the same cases as guys like Tana, Cesaro or Nakamura, all those three already made a recognisable career by the time last GWE came, but five years later we can appreciate that, while Cesaro remained the same consistent guy and Tana elevated himself like never before, Naka I'm 99% he wouldn't make the list now, because his WWE run is what it is. But with a guy like Okada for example... Idk man, I'm not voting for him until I see how he manages himself in his 30s, there's still so much of his career to experience before putting him against all timers. Same with the rest mentioned above.
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Post by Cap on Jan 19, 2021 7:54:38 GMT -5
Elliott's prediction about Bryan becoming the default 1 is interesting. I have less confidence in that happening, but I wouldn't be shocked.
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Post by witlon on Jan 19, 2021 8:07:20 GMT -5
In addition to more people getting a full view of watching the Joshi, Lucha and Shoot Stuff, I think the US Indys are far more likely to be represented, at least from the early era than in the the 2016 list. I didn't realize it before I put my list out, but someone like Chris Hero had 10+ years of good to great film at the time of the last poll, and he's only added to that since. I know the style isn't for everyone, but another example is someone like Jay Briscoe, who has almost 15 more years of film than a candidate like Pat Patterson. It's kind of amazing when you come down to it.
Because of that thought, I think Bryan has a fantastic chance to be #1 overall, and on my ballot, as well. I think more people will get to re-watch/see for the first time all the ROH and other indy stuff, and it's going to push him over the top. I think it's more likely than someone will deep dive into Bryan's stuff, than say, go back and watch Styles' TNA stuff to make a push on him.
Also, I'm wondering if some of the anti-rhetoric for someone like Jumbo won't be as...well heard this time? To a new viewer seeing his entire career without people actively championing against him might get him back in the Top 10. And yeah, I know he finished at 11 in 2016, but if there's not people arguing heavily against him, I don't know if he's down that low.
And a final thought, when the 2026 voting is done, assuming it follows the same timeline and it's actually a thing that comes to fruition...WCW will have been defunct for 25 years. There's a possibility that there's voters in the project that never saw a WCW TV show or PPV live, and that's...just something that makes me feel old when it's reminded.
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Post by nintendologic on Jan 19, 2021 8:26:55 GMT -5
You guys have an interesting definition of lucha if Eddie Guerrero and Rey Mysterio aren't considered luchadores.
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Post by Cap on Jan 19, 2021 9:14:27 GMT -5
In addition to more people getting a full view of watching the Joshi, Lucha and Shoot Stuff, I think the US Indys are far more likely to be represented, at least from the early era than in the the 2016 list. I didn't realize it before I put my list out, but someone like Chris Hero had 10+ years of good to great film at the time of the last poll, and he's only added to that since. I know the style isn't for everyone, but another example is someone like Jay Briscoe, who has almost 15 more years of film than a candidate like Pat Patterson. It's kind of amazing when you come down to it. Because of that thought, I think Bryan has a fantastic chance to be #1 overall, and on my ballot, as well. I think more people will get to re-watch/see for the first time all the ROH and other indy stuff, and it's going to push him over the top. I think it's more likely than someone will deep dive into Bryan's stuff, than say, go back and watch Styles' TNA stuff to make a push on him. Also, I'm wondering if some of the anti-rhetoric for someone like Jumbo won't be as...well heard this time? To a new viewer seeing his entire career without people actively championing against him might get him back in the Top 10. And yeah, I know he finished at 11 in 2016, but if there's not people arguing heavily against him, I don't know if he's down that low. And a final thought, when the 2026 voting is done, assuming it follows the same timeline and it's actually a thing that comes to fruition...WCW will have been defunct for 25 years. There's a possibility that there's voters in the project that never saw a WCW TV show or PPV live, and that's...just something that makes me feel old when it's reminded. I agree with the point about indie wrestling generally and to some extent that might help Bryan's case. I think his early work really holds up, even better than I imagined and I'm a mark for the guy (my #1 as well). I still think the late career Styles push will draw natural comparisons. Given how much championing and arguing against people there was last time... and how much I see the question about who is the greatest of the generation between the two floated around... I still wont be surprised if anti-Bryan discourse starts up. He definitely had his critics last time. I think between ROH, NWA Wildside, TNA, NJPW, and WWE... there will be some dives on Styles.
Which sort of dovetails into another thing I find interesting..... the devoted arguments against people. Don't get me wrong, I get that it is about pros and cons and digging in on these wrestlers and their careers. I just never got how people had the time or energy for concerted efforts at negative arguments. There are a bunch of reasons I didn't vote last time, but the big one was time. I didn't have time to feel like I had a full grasp on enough careers to vote... let alone build cases against people haha. Maybe I'll feel differently when it happens again. Maybe I'll feel passionate about arguing against someone. I honestly don't know.
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Post by Cap on Jan 19, 2021 9:16:16 GMT -5
You guys have an interesting definition of lucha if Eddie Guerrero and Rey Mysterio aren't considered luchadores. I always understood "lucha" to be a shortcut for "wrestlers who primarily built their case in Mexico" in this context. Certainly not the most accurate use of the term, but that's how I assume people are using it.
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